Curse

MadOnion · Jan 21, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

I'd like it if they put random 8 vs. 8 in a seperate arena, but there needs to be an organized 8 vs. 8 arena that's not just GvG. JR has a great post above me, I highly suggest you read it, excellent points.

MarkyX · Jan 21, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

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Random arena for the win. If you don't have the time for a long game with a well planned build designed to actually have success and many consecutive wins, why even bother?

Does random arena have king of the hill, 8 people, and relic runs? Does it reward you for kicking ass? Does it even give you fame?

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This post alone shows how little you understand PvP. Rangerspike overpowered? Definately very powerfull if you run it well, but not overpowered. IWAY overpowered? LOL.

ROFLCOPTER

Make the character you want to play RIGHT now. No "tainted flesh" necro or W/R with tiger's fury. Your own personal thing that you created.

Now try to find a group. Right now.

You won't.

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Running a build of 8 random characters from people who are just playing what they feel like, is going to get you absolutely nowhere. End of discussion.

BWE had random 8 on 8 and it was one of the most insane battles I had. Too bad they didn't put in retail.

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Do not try and ruin tombs for everyone who enjoys it and takes it seriously, just because you don't seem to have the patience or skill to actually run a build with a serious group.

What serious group? All the groups that are serious are running IWAY or ranger trappers.

If the game design was good, I could make my own character and play with it. Currently, I'm forbidden by the other players that I cannot play Assassin, my interrupt ranger, or numerous other builds I fooled around with.

Kakumei · Jan 21, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

How do you explain the lack of new players in tombs?

Proof please.

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

The low number of people being involved?

Proof please.

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

The same builds being used over and over?

It's called the metagame. It will shift in time.

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

While it's great that they decided to stick to the plan, Anet needs to realize that this shit isn't working. Just because something sounds good on paper doesn't mean it works quite well, otherwise they wouldn't be need for nerfs.

It works fine. I certainly hear more praises than complaints. Nerfs, by the way, are for a completely different purpose and bear no weight to your argument. Nerfs occur due to unforseen strength between multiple skills--Anet only has so many playtesters, they're bound to miss some things.

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

Look at this way: I'm rank 7, have many skills unlocked, and starting to get the hang of the assassin class. Yet if I don't make a trapper, IWAY, or tainted necro, I cannot join ANY groups whatsoever. If I make a fire nuker, no one wants me. If I make a shouting warrior, no one wants me. Hell, if I make a shutdown mesmer, no one would want me.

GUILD GUILD GUILD

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

There is hundreds of skills in this game and lots of new players interested in PvP, however they won't get to experience the joy of creating that awesome build or going through some insane battles I went through because other players are denying them this. The system is flawed. If people were really serious about organized game play, serious tactics, awesome builds, there is a place called GvG already for that specific purpose. Tombs always catered to the organized guilds, while people who are new to the game (no rank) or don't have many contacts are left aside and screwed over.

GvG and Tombs are two radically different arenas, by the way. They may seem similar (8-man tactics) but they're very, very different. Builds that work in GvG may not work at all in Tombs, and vice-versa.

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

How, again, is this a good thing? Don't give me "join a guild" or "this is called guild wars" logic. Give me a real answer.

Join a guild. Or stop playing. Or get over it.

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

The system needs to be changed.

Not really, no.

Lord Iowerth · Jan 21, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

What serious group? All the groups that are serious are running IWAY or ranger trappers.

... am I the only one that finds this sentence absolutely hilarious? Serious groups running IWAY? You've *GOT* to be joking

That aside, once you make a few friends (or like Kakumei said, a guild) you'll have no problem at all getting a balanced or experimental group together. I never have had this issue, and my guild doesn't do tombs ... just find some folks that want to run different builds. Hey! You might even make a post on these forums asking for volunteers, and I might even join up

Oh, and never played WoW or EQ, just so you know. Assumptions can get you in trouble

Deadlyjunk · Jan 21, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

All the back and forth flaming aside, I think both parties have a point. But it really shouldn't be in tombs. Look at it this way:

I am a player that likes to experiment with builds. That's why I'm leading a guild that tolerates unorthodox playing methods. We like to think up crazy things (like a "Fear me!" energy denial build, based on the UW phantoms <---that was sweet). However, where do we test a build that we intend to use for GvG? Sure, you can issue an unrated challenge to a willing guild, but how many guilds are willing/have time to help? You could try a rated match... but it's a heavy price to pay for an experiment. That's just one reason that, following your logic, tombs should stay the way it is.

Dzan · Jan 21, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

Does random arena... Does it even give you fame?

Are you seriously suggesting that we give people Fame for a victory in a randomly assigned team? Talk about making Fame worth less than it already is.

I think you're whole arguement about "getting to bring the build you want" is flawed. What you would be doing is rewarding new people for playing poor builds. War/Mo's with Healing Hands don't need any more encouragement, thanks.

We ought to be rewarding people for playing good builds. For example, how quickly will a new monk in your random tombs discover that Infuse Health is a good skill? Probably never. Bottom line, your change would be a step backwards in terms of pvp skill levels as a whole.

MarkyX · Jan 21, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

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Originally Posted by Dzan

Are you seriously suggesting that we give people Fame for a victory in a randomly assigned team? Talk about making Fame worth less than it already is.

I think you're whole arguement about "getting to bring the build you want" is flawed. What you would be doing is rewarding new people for playing poor builds. War/Mo's with Healing Hands don't need any more encouragement, thanks.

We ought to be rewarding people for playing good builds. For example, how quickly will a new monk in your random tombs discover that Infuse Health is a good skill? Probably never. Bottom line, your change would be a step backwards in terms of pvp skill levels as a whole.

Why not make it an option then? If they have time to make a snow event, I'm sure they can make a random 8v8 tournament.

Dzan · Jan 21, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

Why not make it an option then?

Why not give guns to 8 year olds? Because it's dumb and doesn't help them.

In general, you shouldn't give bad options to people that aren't educated enough to make smart choices.

MarkyX · Jan 21, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

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Originally Posted by Dzan

Why not give guns to 8 year olds? Because it's dumb and doesn't help them.

In general, you shouldn't give bad options to people that aren't educated enough to make smart choices.

This is why I don't join guilds and why people leave GW.

The elitist attitude of the GW community, right here.

Deadlyjunk · Jan 21, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

This is why I don't join guilds and why people leave GW.

The elitist attitude of the GW community, right here.

Read my post...

Dzan · Jan 21, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

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Originally Posted by MarkyX

This is why I don't join guilds and why people leave GW.

The elitist attitude of the GW community, right here.

So I'm an elitist because I think Healing Hands is incredibly dumb for a warrior to bring? Because I think Infuse Health is a good skill? Because I think Gale is the best interrupt in the game? If that is the criteria, consider me an elitist then.

You can call me whatever names you want, but it doesn't change the fact that your idea is counterproductive to creating a skill based pvp experience.

MarkyX · Jan 21, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

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Originally Posted by Dzan

So I'm an elitist because I think Healing Hands is incredibly dumb for a warrior to bring? Because I think Infuse Health is a good skill? Because I think Gale is the best interrupt in the game? If that is the criteria, consider me an elitist then.

You can call me whatever names you want, but it doesn't change the fact that your idea is counterproductive to creating a skill based pvp experience.

It's hard to make the game skill based when new players are denied playing the game and they are forced to use ONE build.

Don Vito Corleone · Jan 21, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

/signed

there r many kids brains but adults flesh

ur suggestion will fix their brains.....atleast some of them

to got my rank3 i had to play as iway war and it was funny but i dont want to play iway war whole my life in this game...i have many other builds but i cant play them in tomb because i have to be 1 of iway members or spikers or balanced build which is not balanced in fact

because u have to be mesmer or kd/as war or prot with specific skills

its time to make another separated tomb arena for a random teams

Mercenary662 · Jan 21, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

i wouldnt mind having 2 tombs type places. the original tobms is where you do the favor and the nomrla tombs stuff. Hero's Ascent would be like TA, but with 8 instead, so you could still form a group, and you could still be a group of 1-3 and just hit enter and get into a team.

Arturo02 · Jan 21, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

If you feel there are all these people with the same thinking as you, then go to tombs, and start a group.

Kate Bloodspirit · Jan 21, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

This is my position against this idea and the reasons why. I think that a game based on randomness such as the one you describe is weak because it discourages the participation of individual players, specially those who are r9+ because those are the only ones who do not care about fame anymore(ironically). The result will be an homogeneous population of ranked people. Where all the players will belong to the 3-8 range, therefore it wouldn't be fun to play anymore because obviously there's no tangible reward.

This gameplay style you describe doesn't enforce teamwork as a winning factor. Mostly because it will take insane amounts of planning (in a very limited timeframe) to find out what the build is gonna do, who is gonna lead the strategy, get all the people into vent/ts and most definitely, what is each and everyone going to do in case of X (where X is each of the maps in the way to the HoH).

This will also bring to us the most feared fear of the well known competitions arenas, and this is: "No monk = no win". Now, the only thing I see will encourage is for everyone to bring that famously named skill "I Will Avenge You" because it's the only self-heal that gives you a competetive ofensive advantage against other teams.

And it is true that it breaks rank barriers for everyone shall have the same emote, mainly because higher ranked players will be forced to play with less ranked/more unexperienced players. Welcome to comunism (that a joke of course).

In any case, the people who has earned high ranks in this game is because they have been able, not only to create cooperative/competitive team builds, but also because they have been able to outplay other cooperative/competitive builds with them, throughout teamwork coordination and individual skill level.

I understand your concerns, that a set-in-stone gameplay style, builds and skillbars have been set in the minds of most players for a long time now and will continue to be so until the end of Guild Wars. However, it is in each of you to set up the next metagame. And Anet has given you plenty of ways to do so (faction, observer mode, fan sites like this, etc). If you don't do it, it is your own fault.

anonymous · Jan 21, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

To the OP-

I need this answered with yes or no: are you basically saying lets let the noobs in with horrible builds and force the decent players to group with them.

Second this wont eliminate the rank barrier. People that are high rank will go and and say "rank plz" and if everyone isnt above a certain rank, they will quit.

You will also get people who give a ts or vent and tell people to get in to be organized. if everyone doesnt join /quit

You will get people who if they see a w/mo use mending /quit

along with many other reasons to /quit

All I see your idea doing is letting the noobs play whatever they want and not leave a tombs type options for the players that have been playing longer than the people who just joined and who know what they are doing.

/unsigned
now I saw somewhere else in this thread a comprimise: make it like TA, you can have 5 people in you group and hit enter and get put with 3 others, but still allows an organized 8 player team to play.

in that case /signed.

All i think this idea needs to work is a comprimise of both organized groups and fast groups.

A User Name · Jan 21, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I agree 100% the system of rank has to be changed. While i dk if random areanas is the way to go here but it is a good idea that shouldnt be just thrown out the window. I also agree 100% that IWAY MUST BE NERFED to allow creativity to return the the Halls. I mean all IWAY has caused is good players like myself to either drop the game or simply refuse to go tombing. Until Iway is nerfed then tombs is basically no fun and the casual gamer is basically on his own to find a r3+ group while only being r0 himself. Also id rather take a r2-3+ player who earned his deer without iway than a r9+ iway player. But i do not believe random tombs will solve the problems of rank and iway. ANet plz do something to ALLOW CREAVITITY AND FUN RETURN TO TOMBS (or hero's ascent whatever you wish to call it)

Woutsie · Jan 21, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

A good and a bad idea, in certain ways...
They should make different districts, for beginners (rank 0 to 1), for advanced players (rank 2-4), and so on...
Players with rank 0 will not be able to join districts with rank 2 or 4, or higher...
And players with rank 2 or higher, will not be able to join the rank 0 districts.

There are too many people that dont want to let the beginners join their party, i mean, come on. They are new, atleast give them a chance.

Anyway, this might have been suggested before, and if this is impossible, please let me know.

anonymous · Jan 21, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

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Originally Posted by Woutsie

A good and a bad idea, in certain ways...
They should make different districts, for beginners (rank 0 to 1), for advanced players (rank 2-4), and so on...
Players with rank 0 will not be able to join districts with rank 2 or 4, or higher...
And players with rank 2 or higher, will not be able to join the rank 0 districts.

There are too many people that dont want to let the beginners join their party, i mean, come on. They are new, atleast give them a chance.

Anyway, this might have been suggested before, and if this is impossible, please let me know.

but then that alienates friends that are r9 and r 2, they cant play together. I wouldnt mind if they had rank assigned districts as long as they keep some districts for all ranks. I see the OPs idea working as long as they keep the original heros ascent after they add a random option to it.